Press Conferences

APC13/2002
23 July 2002

TRANSCRIPT

JOHN LAWS PROGRAMME

Subjects: Cubbie Station, drought, Iraq

PRESENTER

You're attending a Cabinet meeting this morning. Could anything emerge from that which might help the farmers, John?

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER

One issue that I think is widely known is being considered today frankly, it seems to have got out the way these things do sometimes, is Cubbie Station. I noticed you mentioned that this morning.

PRESENTER

We sure did. There is a lot of concern about that and I can understand the concern, but I can also understand the reverse argument.

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER

It's a complicated one. Let me make a couple of points about it. There are some environmental issues up there that have to be addressed, and the local community accept that and they probably range across water flows, across salinity and tree clearing, but the Commonwealth buy-out of Cubbie Station is not the solution as I've been saying and what we've got to do, is the way we do things under the Federal Government's National Action Plan for Salinity and Water Quality where you actually enter into a decent consultative phase with the local community, you get the scientists in, you agree on the problem and you find the best way forward and then you share the costs or the burdens. Now funnily enough they had to be dragged kicking and screaming to that point. Mr Beattie went out to Dirranbandi and has come to the conclusion that we ought to go back and have another a look at how it is all done and I think that's reasonable. I think we can probably find an agreement on that, but I do want to stress that the buyout of Cubbie Station, particularly considering that it's Queensland's problem, their responsibility, why should Federal tax payers and New South Wales taxpayers fund 85 per cent of something that is really a Queensland problem.

PRESENTER

But ultimately it would help New South Wales and Victoria?

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER

I don't think this solution would be an effective use of money. Now, as I have said to you there are issues that have got to be addressed and I've spoken to the local communities out there. Great people. They're innovators, they've got in, they've had a go but there are some emerging problems, no doubt about that. It is a science I'm told, as I said, but there is more than just water - it is salinity, although the salinity doesn't seem to be coming from Cubbie Station, it's coming from other areas in the catchment and I think Premier Beattie's proposition now is something we can hammer into shape because, as many of your listeners will want to ring me up or write to me as they do after I talk to you, there are issues, and people do want the environmental aspects addressed.

PRESENTER

O.K. so what's the future for Dirranbandi?

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER

Look I actually think, done properly, we can secure a decent future for Dirranbandi. I think the community knows that some adjustments might be needed in some areas. But if you use the water more efficiently, you know, if you do it fairly, if you do it equitably, I think we can keep the place going. It has got a tremendous sense of vibrancy now John, it's amazing. When I went there ten years ago it was, well frankly a pretty sad little town. I went there about twelve months ago and the place is alive and humming, they're creating wealth and they have got jobs, and they appreciate it and they are making a real contribution to the economy.

PRESENTER

But their concerned of course, that if Cubbie goes, the jobs go too?

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER

Look closing Cubbie down, particularly with Commonwealth money, John, is not the solution.

PRESENTER

So you're not going to do it. Can Peter Beattie do it on his own?

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER

Now hang on, can I say to you there are other aspects to it. I mean ..

PRESENTER

So you

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER

Look, under Greenhouse and under the National Action Plan, we can make a financial contribution, but it isn't going to be in the form of just buying Cubbie and shutting it down. Cubby might even have to make a contribution and they would acknowledge that, but we have got to agree on the science and then agree on how we burdenshare, how we do the paying.

PRESENTER

Yeh. I'm quite sure some people would accept cut backs in water as a compromise to ensure that Cubbie is not closed down, would that be possible?

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER

Well, you see, if you took all the water away from Cubby and you might shut it down and still not solve the salinity problems because they are coming from other parts of the basin, it would appear that that's not where the major problem is. As I say, it isn't just about water flows. There's a salinity problem, and there is in some areas, potentially, a tree clearing problem. You have got to address them holistically and actually I think this might be a classic case of proper coordination producing the best outcome for everyone, for the people who live and work in the area, for the people who want the water flows downstream and for tackling salinity and greenhouse - the trouble is that the Beattie Government, without consultation with the local community, came up with a solution that all the local bushies will tell you is not the solution. It won't work.

PRESENTER

Well apparently he's going back to the drawing board. Look whether or not he'll listen to the scientific information, I say, remains to be seen, doesn't it?

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER

He has asked an eminent scientist, in Peter Cullen, to be involved, but he has also asked the Commonwealth to be involved and we basically, I think our attitude will be that yes, we will be involved in that, yes we do want to find answers to these solutions but our prerequisite with all of these, John, must be and is now under our National Action Plan for Water Quality and Salinity, you have to consult with the community that has got to make the adjustments. So we are not going to leave them out in the dark or the cold, that's the key point.

PRESENTER

Because as I say constantly there's not a lot of point in having pristine, crystal clear water flowing through ghost towns is there?

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER

No there's not. But, you know, if you go about these things the right way, and this was the wrong way, I mean the people out there in 'bandi heard about this when it fell off the back of a truck in Brisbane.

PRESENTER

I know.

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER

Now look the point about this is, I've met with those, and they're great people, I've got a lot of time for them John they are great Australians. And when I sit down with them, they say several things. They say firstly, Cubbie's not really the answer because it's the best quality land and it won't be where the salt's coming from and now we're finding the science is backing that up, so this wouldn't be the right solution even if it had been gone around the right way; but the other thing they say is look, come and talk with us, we want sustainability too, let's agree on the science, get the science right, and then work out what the solution is and find the way then to fund it fairly.

PRESENTER

Can you isolate the land where the salt is?

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER

There's a lot of work going into that at the moment, and it's a bit early yet to really say that it's not on Cubbie, but it looks to me, to me personally, and I think I know a bit about these, you know, these bush issues, as though the main salinity problem is elsewhere. It's in the region, but it's not on Cubbie.

PRESENTER

OK. Now, about these farmers. Something has got to be done to help them and help them in a hurry. We're doing, we've got our mates at Toyota involved, we've got all sorts of people involved, we've found where we can get hold of feed, we're going to buy the feed, we're going to do our best to truck it out there, but really, as much as we want to do it, you people should be doing something too shouldn't you?

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER

Well, we have an agreed process, and you know long agreed, which is that when a drought gets really serious we do the heavy lifting under what's called Exceptional Circumstances, as I said to you last week, and look I do know how people want us to keep the politics out of this, I understand that, but I mean you've got to ask yourself why we have state governments if they are not going to do any of the lifting, you really do John. Now, I mean, we have this thing called Exceptional Circumstances

PRESENTER

But, but if they're not going, the thing I don't understand is what I said to you the other day. If you feel that Bob Carr is not doing the right thing, and he may or may not be doing it depending on which side of the political fence you are on I imagine, why don't you just do it and shame the states into then having to do something.

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER

I've thought a lot about that and I think my answer to that, is that we don't think it would shame New South Wales into doing anything. We think it would just make it even easier for them to walk away from providing the basic help.

PRESENTER

OK. but they are making it easy for you to walk away and the people are saying well, what the hell's the state got to do with it, this is the Federal Government and they are the ones that should be helping us. John Anderson is the head of the National Party, he's the Deputy Prime Minister, he's is the one who should be crying our case to the Prime Minister.

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER

OK. Well let me just answer that very simply.

Firstly, we have always pulled our weight. I mean we put about $700 million into Exceptional Circumstances in the mid-90s drought. $700 million.

Secondly, and the flood package in northern New South Wales we did all of it. We did over $200 million. And the Dairy Package, of course, $1.8 million while the States did nothing. But, look there's a long agreed formula here, the state governments approach the Commonwealth when it gets serious for an assessment under Exceptional Circumstances to bring us in. New South Wales has not asked us for that yet

PRESENTER

No but the farmers have asked you for it.

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER

No. I haven't been out to Brewarrina and Bourke, and they're assembling their case now to ask the state government to ask us for Exceptional Circumstances. That's been a long agreed process.

PRESENTER

You see in New South Wales, they are about six or seven months out from a state election. It would be a terribly powerful electioneering tool for the Opposition in the state of New South Wales to shame the Carr Government.

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER

Well, I've thought a lot about that, but my view is that they can't be shamed on these rural issues. They've got to be dragged kicking and screaming. I mean they've got down to a 4 percent contribution in a serious drought.

PRESENTER

But would it matter, would it matter if they were dragged kicking and screaming so long as they did it?

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER

No because, I don't think they would be. I think the minute we stepped in again. See I've had experience with this John.

PRESENTER

Yeh.

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER

I've been face to face with Bob Carr, the Premier of New South Wales, on the flood package. You know he said he'd come in, he said he'd help, he said he'd do something with the replanting grant and when push came to shove we did come in because it was so serious and New South Wales walked away from us. The question I ask myself is, why do we bother with state governments if they don't have a responsibility in regional Australia at all?

PRESENTER

Well some might ask why we even have state governments? But as far as this one is concerned, it would kill them electorally in the bush, if they didn't help; it would kill this Government electorally in the bush.

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER

Well, but that's the problem. They don't take any notice of the bush because they haven't got anybody out there.

PRESENTER

Well they've got some seats out there.

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER

No, well only one in western New South Wales, and that's the only one.

PRESENTER

Well I would have thought there were more than that. But you would know better than I.

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER

West of the divide?

PRESENTER

I've talked to you before about this, this idea of having a constant amount of money in place in case of things like droughts and other things, what about issuing about some type of Aussie Bonds that people could invest in?

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER

Well, we do have one. Which are called Farm Management Deposits, which farmers can deposit in good times.

PRESENTER

What about regular people?

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER

I suppose the answer we have always given to that is that once you trip these mechanisms, once you trip Exceptional Circumstances, and we have done a lot of funding through that process, over the last five or six years, once you trip that there is no limit on it anyway, it is demand driven while ever the problem remains there, you get the help.

PRESENTER

I suppose so. That's something I'd really like to talk to you about further. Just something else. Do you think a few of your Cabinet colleagues have gone off half cocked on the plans to extend the war on terror to include Iraq given that Iraq is now talking about halving its wheat imports from Australia? Farmers have got enough problems without this.

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER

Well I should say straight up, you are always best to declare your interest, I'm a wheat farmer. But I don't think I'm going to have any to sell this year anyway because of the drought. I actually don't think I'll deliver a grain which I tell you it hurts financially.

PRESENTER

Yeh, I bet it does.

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER

I can identify with a lot of other people in that category. Look, we've always sought as a Government to separate, you know trade and economic policy from strategic policy, we think that's very important. We think that certainly I have to say that Iraq should oblige with the international community, and the UN requirements of it, in relation to what it's really up to and, you know, subject itself to scrutiny and verification that it's not developing weapons of mass destruction and other nasties, that's one issue; we feel strongly about that, that's International Security. On the other side of it, our wheat and agricultural trade's very important. We provide a very good, quality product at a very fair price to Iraq and I would have thought it was very much in its interests to take Australian wheat. Mark Vaile, my Trade Minister, and colleague, has just been to Libya looking, with the Wheat Board, taken the Wheat Board over there

PRESENTER

I talked to him from Libya, but the point is, there is no hard data from the US on why the war should be extended to include Iraq. There is all sorts of talk about Saddam Hussein harbouring terrorists, and I'm sure he is, but suddenly because the United Sates says alright, well you know, we're going to go and finish the job that Daddy didn't do, why are we just simply going along with it, when we could suffer a huge financial loss if we lost half our wheat exports to Iraq?

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER

Well, I think the only thing I can say to that is that the easiest way of all to have it resolved is for Iraq to agree to the UN resolutions and terms of proving or verifying the true nature of its activities.

PRESENTER

But they should have done that a long time ago. Why should Australian farmers suffer while the UN makes up its mind whether Iraq is doing the right thing or the wrong thing, why are we even involved in this?

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER

Well, I can only say that I sincerely hope and believe that Australian farmers will not suffer as a result of this and we will keep working on it. It needs to be remembered, of course, there is a bit of a view in the rest of the world that the Wheat Board is a government instrumentality, it's not. It's a private business, you know, representing the interests, if you like, of wheatgrowers and acting on their behalf.

PRESENTER

But a decision made by the Government can affect the wheat growers, and you're one of them.

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER

Yeh, well that happens, and that's why I declared my interest up front. Always important to do that, I'd hate anyone to be misled. I don't have an easy answer to these sorts of global dilemmas that come up from time to time. They can hurt us, no doubt about that.

PRESENTER

You see we're in a drought, and really given what you've said to me this morning, the Federal Government isn't about to do anything about that.

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER

No, no, no. I just make the point again, that under a long established precedent New South Wales should apply for Exceptional Circumstances. They haven't done it. They haven't asked us.

PRESENTER

Well, but the farmers have asked for it. To hell with the New South Wales State Government, they couldn't grow a cabbage for God's sake, it's the farmers who need the help and they are asking for it by way of screaming out loud to everybody from me up or down, which ever way you want to look at it. I mean you're aware of their plight, it's not as if you're not aware of their plight. Why wait for the New South Wales State Government

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER

Well for the reason I explained earlier, I honestly believe we let them off too lightly. They've got to make a contribution. We're not asking to cut back our contribution, we're asking them to make a bigger contribution, so you can get more cash into the hands of farmers.

PRESENTER

But you see, you say to me John, and I know you're the best intentioned bloke you'd meet in a day's march, but you say to me you don't want to make it political, but it is political, because you are saying we won't give anything until the New South Wales State Government does, that's political. Why don't you say screw the New South Wales State Government, if you haven't got the decency to help your own farmers we'll do it for you.

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER

Because I think we can do more for them when New South Wales come to the party. I also don't think -- I mean it is taxpayers' money in the end, we've got to remember that -- I don't think we ought to let the state governments off so lightly. We have put an entirely decent proposition before the states, that under EC, Exceptional Circumstances, we'll put in the same amount of money but they ought to lift their contribution so that instead of just putting in a measly 4 percent, they put in 17 percent. We really need to get that up for the benefit of farmers right across the nation so that when these things hit, there's a better deal for those who are really badly left out.

PRESENTER

Yet, well given the feeling that exists at least in the climate in which I survive on a daily basis, there wouldn't be a single taxpayer that I know that would object to moneys going to the farmers who are in this hideous situation yet again, and the situation is going to get worse, and unless we do something about it quickly, so what do we have to do? Have I got to ring up Bob Carr and say will you give 17 percent? I don't even know 17 percent of what, but I'll ask him if you like.

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER

Agree to the framework for Exceptional Circumstances. That would be a great thing, ask him to agree. That would be very useful. That would be very useful, because remember it's more than just New South Wales farmers, this happens all over the country from time to time.

PRESENTER

I understand that.

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER

Now we put up a proposition because, ironically, John precisely because farmers say the process is too slow and the states don't put enough in, put up a proposition for a better frame work and New South Wales has held out on signing up because it involves a little more money for them. Now I'm saying we ought to drag them kicking and screaming, and if it has to get a bit political, I don't like that, but I'm sorry I actually think we ought to do it because the states get off too cheaply and too freely.

PRESENTER

How much money did the State of New South Wales give to Afghanistan?

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER

As far as I'm aware, nothing, but they may have made some contribution somewhere.

PRESENTER

No, well you're quite right they gave nothing and yet we, the Federal Government, gave $1 million.

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER

But we do operate Foreign Affairs to be fair at a Federal Level.

PRESENTER

I know, but if we can give $1m to Afghanistan for an earthquake why can't we give some money to the farmers?

PRESENTER

I mean, I know it is all very simplistic, but that's the way most people think.

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER

Yeh, I accept that, but I just point to our record. We helped the dairy industry, $1.8 billion, we helped the farmers of northern NSW and Queensland $200 million after the floods, Exceptional Circumstances in the mid 90s about $700 million, the State Government's contribution to that were absolutely minuscule, they need to pull their weight a bit more, and we need to establish that principle so they don't immediately offload every problem onto us and sidestep their own responsibilities.

PRESENTER

O.K., well I'll see if I can find Bob Carr, and what have I got to ask him, if he'll give 17 percent, if he'll agree to Exceptional?

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER

If he will agree to the new guidelines put up by Warren Truss for Exceptional Circumstances?

PRESENTER

OK, well we'll see what we can do, but in the meantime the farmers are looking to you.

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER

They are, and I just say, I understand exactly how they are hurting, but I also make the point remember we put Farm Management Deposits there to help farmers insulate themselves, now John what I said the other day and I repeat - there are some farmers such as in that north western area, far west particularly of New South Wales, who haven't had an opportunity to use them but I have to say because it is an important point for taxpayers, we put those there, they do cost the taxpayers money because when you put money into those in a time when you have got some cash you don't pay tax on it, you pull them out in a tough time when by implication when you haven't a tax problem.

PRESENTER

Yeh, I understand.

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER

There is well over $1 billion in that. We set it up to help farmers prepare themselves and many, many farmers have been able to do so, and I think that's a very good thing.

PRESENTER

Well that is certainly a step in the right direction. OK, John, again, thank you very much for your time and we'll see where it goes from here.

ENDS